Comments on: The Groningen Protocol – Two Catholics’ Views http://www.okieonthelam.com/2004/12/05/professorbainbridgecom-michael-perry-and-the-groningen-protocol/ "One of Oklahoma's best gifts to SoCal" -- Tapscott's Copy Desk Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:14:18 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Earl E. Appleby, Jr. http://www.okieonthelam.com/2004/12/05/professorbainbridgecom-michael-perry-and-the-groningen-protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-132 Earl E. Appleby, Jr. Mon, 13 Dec 2004 04:32:45 +0000 http://www.okieonthelam.com/?p=181#comment-132 Coen de Graaf begins with a truth: "Judeo-Christian society is not always better, in fact worse if that same society does not really listen to the bible, and especially Jesus Christ and his teachings" and ends with a lie: "Should you make it possible that people that cannot make that kind of decision on their own be killed under certain circumstances? I say, hesitantly, yes." Murder is murder, however, hesitantly endorsed. As such it is condemned by the God of Abraham and His Only Begotten Son, as well as His Holy Word. A Culture of Death is scarcely a Christian civilization or even a civilization whatever it may profess with its lips. For more about the infamous Groningen Protocols, visit <a href="http://cureltd.blogspot.com>Life Matters!</a>. And keep telling it like it is on this spot-on blog! Coen de Graaf begins with a truth: “Judeo-Christian society is not always better, in fact worse if that same society does not really listen to the bible, and especially Jesus Christ and his teachings” and ends with a lie: “Should you make it possible that people that cannot make that kind of decision on their own be killed under certain circumstances? I say, hesitantly, yes.”

Murder is murder, however, hesitantly endorsed. As such it is condemned by the God of Abraham and His Only Begotten Son, as well as His Holy Word.

A Culture of Death is scarcely a Christian civilization or even a civilization whatever it may profess with its lips.

For more about the infamous Groningen Protocols, visit http://www.okieonthelam.com/?p=181#comment-131 <strong>The Groningen Corollary</strong> If existence by committee is to be the legacy of Mankind, then the silence of our lambs today may yield the soylents of necessity tomorrow. The Groningen Corollary
If existence by committee is to be the legacy of Mankind, then the silence of our lambs today may yield the soylents of necessity tomorrow.

]]> By: OkieBoy http://www.okieonthelam.com/2004/12/05/professorbainbridgecom-michael-perry-and-the-groningen-protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-130 OkieBoy Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:55:54 +0000 http://www.okieonthelam.com/?p=181#comment-130 <blockquote>Should you make it possible that people that cannot make that kind of decision on their own be killed under certain circumstances? I say, hesitantly, yes. There should be very explicit rules, procedures, and checks and balances, and severe punishment if the rules are not followed to the letter.</blockquote> The above comment by Mr. de Graff makes the point of the argument against euthanasia for anyone. Who would make up these rules? Who would see that they are enforced? In WWII, it was the Nazis that decided, who would decide today? Again, in a secular society that has rejected Judeo-Christian principals and ideals, you are left with only the concepts of men to guide you in matters of law and justice. Moral relativism becomes a death spiral of the soul, and obviously, of the body as well! . . . db

Should you make it possible that people that cannot make that kind of decision on their own be killed under certain circumstances? I say, hesitantly, yes. There should be very explicit rules, procedures, and checks and balances, and severe punishment if the rules are not followed to the letter.

The above comment by Mr. de Graff makes the point of the argument against euthanasia for anyone. Who would make up these rules? Who would see that they are enforced? In WWII, it was the Nazis that decided, who would decide today?

Again, in a secular society that has rejected Judeo-Christian principals and ideals, you are left with only the concepts of men to guide you in matters of law and justice. Moral relativism becomes a death spiral of the soul, and obviously, of the body as well! . . . db

]]> By: Coen de Graaf http://www.okieonthelam.com/2004/12/05/professorbainbridgecom-michael-perry-and-the-groningen-protocol/comment-page-1/#comment-128 Coen de Graaf Fri, 10 Dec 2004 16:35:19 +0000 http://www.okieonthelam.com/?p=181#comment-128 Let me first start with some quantitative arguments why Judeo-Christian society is not always better, in fact worse if that same society does not really listen to the bible, and especially Jesus Christ and his teachings about equality and the acquiring of wealth. Child mortality rates in 2002 Deaths per 1000 children before the age of 5 USA: 8 Netherlands 5 Source: Unicef, 2004 That should show where children are more likey to survive. "However, experts acknowledge that doctors euthanize routinely in the United States and elsewhere, but that the practice is hidden. "Measures that might marginally extend a child's life by minutes or hours or days or weeks are stopped. This happens routinely, namely, every day," said Lance Stell, professor of medical ethics at Davidson College in Davidson, N.C., and staff ethicist at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, N.C. "Everybody knows that it happens, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. Instead, people talk about things they're not going to do." More than half of all deaths occur under medical supervision, so it's really about management and method of death, Stell said. " Source:http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041130/D86MEAA80.html So it happens in the USA, but they just dont tell anyone about it. "A new report from international agency Oxfam today reveals that 45 million more children will die needlessly by 2015, because rich countries are failing to provide the necessary resources to overcome poverty." Source: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/press/releases/mdgs_price061204.htm The Netherlands are providing the agreed 0.7% of GNP as agreed, the USA are paying less then 0.3% of GNP. Who cares more about the lives of children abroad? 10.7% of U.S. children have no Health insurance(source:CDC), lack of health insurance results in a 25% increased risk of death(source:a.o Linda J. Blumberg and David W. Liska, The Uninsured in the United States: A Status Report (Washington, DC: Urban Institute, April 1996)) In general, the conclusion is that imho the USA should worry more about their own decisions that let children die, because the data clearly shows that more work can and must be done in that area. The USA spends more money than any other country on health care but it does not show in the numbers, simply because that money benefits the wealthy more. These comments were however only in part about the topic at hand, child euthanisia. This moral issue, is live always preferable above death is a very personal one. I personally say no, death might be better in some circumstances. If I knew that I only had a month to live at the most, I would be in agonizing pain all the way, anti-pain medication would not help, then I would be happy to take my own live, or begging others to do so. Should you make it possible that people that cannot make that kind of decision on their own be killed under certain circumstances? I say, hesitantly, yes. There should be very explicit rules, procedures, and checks and balances, and severe punishment if the rules are not followed to the letter. And that precisely is my main objection to the practice of euthanisia today in The Netherlands. It is not policed enough by hospitals and other medical institions, not enough pressure on MD's to use euthanisia rules instead of terminal sedation(which is the standard practice in countries where euthanisia is forbidden) and not enough education on euthanisia to MD's so they are not as afraid to be prosecuted for doing the right thing(imho). To conclude: if you look at the numbers, i would say that the Dutch government cares more about the children than you might think. Let me first start with some quantitative arguments why Judeo-Christian society is not always better, in fact worse if that same society does not really listen to the bible, and especially Jesus Christ and his teachings about equality and the acquiring of wealth.

Child mortality rates in 2002
Deaths per 1000 children before the age of 5
USA: 8
Netherlands 5
Source: Unicef, 2004

That should show where children are more likey to survive.

“However, experts acknowledge that doctors euthanize routinely in the United States and elsewhere, but that the practice is hidden.

“Measures that might marginally extend a child’s life by minutes or hours or days or weeks are stopped. This happens routinely, namely, every day,” said Lance Stell, professor of medical ethics at Davidson College in Davidson, N.C., and staff ethicist at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, N.C. “Everybody knows that it happens, but there’s a lot of hypocrisy. Instead, people talk about things they’re not going to do.”

More than half of all deaths occur under medical supervision, so it’s really about management and method of death, Stell said. ” Source:http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041130/D86MEAA80.html

So it happens in the USA, but they just dont tell anyone about it.

“A new report from international agency Oxfam today reveals that 45 million more children will die needlessly by 2015, because rich countries are failing to provide the necessary resources to overcome poverty.” Source: http://www.oxfam.org.uk/press/releases/mdgs_price061204.htm

The Netherlands are providing the agreed 0.7% of GNP as agreed, the USA are paying less then 0.3% of GNP. Who cares more about the lives of children abroad?

10.7% of U.S. children have no Health insurance(source:CDC), lack of health insurance results in a 25% increased risk of death(source:a.o Linda J. Blumberg and David W. Liska, The Uninsured in the United States: A Status Report (Washington, DC: Urban Institute, April 1996))

In general, the conclusion is that imho the USA should worry more about their own decisions that let children die, because the data clearly shows that more work can and must be done in that area. The USA spends more money than any other country on health care but it does not show in the numbers, simply because that money benefits the wealthy more.

These comments were however only in part about the topic at hand, child euthanisia. This moral issue, is live always preferable above death is a very personal one. I personally say no, death might be better in some circumstances. If I knew that I only had a month to live at the most, I would be in agonizing pain all the way, anti-pain medication would not help, then I would be happy to take my own live, or begging others to do so. Should you make it possible that people that cannot make that kind of decision on their own be killed under certain circumstances?

I say, hesitantly, yes. There should be very explicit rules, procedures, and checks and balances, and severe punishment if the rules are not followed to the letter. And that precisely is my main objection to the practice of euthanisia today in The Netherlands. It is not policed enough by hospitals and other medical institions, not enough pressure on MD’s to use euthanisia rules instead of terminal sedation(which is the standard practice in countries where euthanisia is forbidden) and not enough education on euthanisia to MD’s so they are not as afraid to be prosecuted for doing the right thing(imho).

To conclude: if you look at the numbers, i would say that the Dutch government cares more about the children than you might think.

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